From bear at code-bear.dyndns.org Thu Jan 2 09:16:53 2003 From: bear at code-bear.dyndns.org (bear) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Fwd: contents Message-ID: <0H830092NBOV4T@mtaout04.icomcast.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Friend, I have forwarded your request to our General@ mailing list - the author of the articles will be able to respond to you directly. thanks, bear WorldForge Coordinator - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: contents Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:51:04 +0100 From: Jean Marie Debois To: bear@code-bear.dyndns.org Dear, Where can I find the text of Lagrange Points, Parts 1 to 4 ? Most sincerely Happy New Year !! - ------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+FEnV7ial3MOmg6MRAroOAKCsd79gNUtKfry1QRUG/p8zDatO0wCfShM0 e7LggYGcVD3ojSPIdsu0Yg0= =/xrX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From blin at gmx.net Thu Jan 9 10:30:28 2003 From: blin at gmx.net (IRC Bookmark) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] BM: some WF server/client musings (#lounge) Message-ID: <20030109103028.D76A9B7FC@molgen-1.iah.medizin.uni-tuebingen.de> Latest finding from #lounge at 10:30 on Thursday, 09th January: Description: some WF server/client musings URL: http://134.2.122.1/~kai/wf/%23lounge/2003-01-09,10%3A07.html#some_WF_se ____________________ This is a bookmark function of the log module for Smithers. Use "%log:bookmark ", it will update the bookmark.html and posts links the correct email address. Note that many times discussion starts earlier than bookmark place. From nephrael at attbi.com Mon Jan 6 12:38:26 2003 From: nephrael at attbi.com (Douglas R. Miles (USA-1)) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities In-Reply-To: <20021217181832.GC17254@pulsion.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000201c2b5c3$912079b0$cdf1e40c@lotus> Hi I am back online shortly (was relocating my computer system to new residence) Generally an "Upper-level Ontology" is useful to the clients. For example (already defined in atlas) "operation" "entity". I have worked on one yes.. Then saw that I have a preconceived ontology that comes from my work with CYC http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/doing-vocab.html#Action http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/fundamental-vocab.html#siblingDisjointExcept ions (more info www.opencyc.org) the lowercase (just Hungarian notation) correspond to attributes like "#$doneBy" can be the from= in an operation. This ontology is very detailed and customers often would ask to get a very lean basic "essential ontology". Which to accomplish means the definitional collections so they can define new actions of class types. The wide ontology is encouraged (you don't have to reinvent collections) so that when a person crosses into having useful data for other programs (or AI) we are using the same definitions for the same collections (classes). * How much of this could or should we put into atlas? Atlas has evolved a bit with clients and servers (I am not able to access http://www.worldforge.net/aloril/atlas/spec/v0.2.4/index.html at this moment) What is the most current atlas right now? And if a particular game ontology is getting hard coded into clients (not just servers) for better type support then it may as well be part of a "level 2 atlas support".. So I need to see the current new atlas spec then I'll make suggestion from there. -----Original Message----- From: general-admin@mail.worldforge.org [mailto:general-admin@mail.worldforge.org] On Behalf Of Al Riddoch Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:19 AM To: general@worldforge.org Subject: Re: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities << File: ATT00008.dat >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2002 at 05:54:38PM +0100, Miguel Guzm?n wrote: > Hello all, > > I need a quick answer from people here (and dmiles specially): has > anyone started work on defining an ontology for Atlas entities? In a sense defining an ontology is part of what Atlas does, but it there is no one single ontology, rather the ontology is specific to the game, and the client queries it using Atlas. dmiles knows much more about this than I do, so you are probably better off talking to him. Al From oliver.white at invensys.com Fri Jan 10 14:14:46 2003 From: oliver.white at invensys.com (oliver.white@invensys.com) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Re: interested in contributing (fwd) Message-ID: If broken links are the only problem with the site, that's probably the best course of action. Has anyone noticed any other problems with our zope creation? -- Oli Al Riddoch To: general@worldforge.org Sent by: cc: general-admin@mail.worl Fax to: dforge.org Subject: Re: [WF-General] Re: interested in contributing (fwd) 03/27/02 11:42 PM Please respond to general On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 11:35:39PM -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote: Content-Description: Mail message body > I normally do not forward personal emails to mailing lists, however I > am fowarding this email because some good points are made that I think > the project as a whole needs to understand. I have removed the name and > address of the submitter for their protection. > > This is not the first time I have received such an email and feel it to > be an endemic problem originating with the switch to the > broken-link-plagued zope site. I suspect that such desertions will > continue until we migrate to a system that does not suffer from such > broken link issues, or until WorldForge ceases to exist as a functioning > project. > Perhaps a simpler problem to "the broken link issue" might be to go through the site fixing the links? Al _______________________________________________ General mailing list General@mail.worldforge.org http://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general From alriddoch at zepler.org Fri Jan 10 11:17:57 2003 From: alriddoch at zepler.org (Alistair Riddoch) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities In-Reply-To: <000201c2b5c3$912079b0$cdf1e40c@lotus> References: <20021217181832.GC17254@pulsion.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <000201c2b5c3$912079b0$cdf1e40c@lotus> Message-ID: <20030110111757.GA21118@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 12:38:26PM -0800, Douglas R. Miles (USA-1) wrote: > Hi > I am back online shortly (was relocating my computer system to new > residence) Generally an "Upper-level Ontology" is useful to the clients. > For example (already defined in atlas) "operation" "entity". I have worked > on one yes.. Then saw that I have a preconceived ontology that comes from my > work with CYC http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/doing-vocab.html#Action > http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/fundamental-vocab.html#siblingDisjointExcept > ions > (more info www.opencyc.org) > the lowercase (just Hungarian notation) correspond to attributes like > "#$doneBy" can be the from= in an operation. > > This ontology is very detailed and customers often would ask to get a very > lean basic "essential ontology". Which to accomplish means the definitional > collections so they can define new actions of class types. The wide > ontology is encouraged (you don't have to reinvent collections) so that when > a person crosses into having useful data for other programs (or AI) we are > using the same definitions for the same collections (classes). > > * How much of this could or should we put into atlas? > > Atlas has evolved a bit with clients and servers (I am not able to access > http://www.worldforge.net/aloril/atlas/spec/v0.2.4/index.html > at this moment) What is the most current atlas right now? > And if a particular game ontology is getting hard coded into clients (not > just servers) for better type support then it may as well be part of a > "level 2 atlas support".. > > > So I need to see the current new atlas spec then I'll make suggestion from > there. The best way to get the latest Atlas spec is to get it from the forge/protocols/atlas directory in the forge module in cvs. However, I can assure you that we are not hard coding the type information into clients. Our current code queries taxanomic information from the server at connection time, and uses this information to infer things, particularly how something should be rendered if it has no class specific rendering information. For example, sear renders anything thats class inherits from "character" using a standard human model, but has specific models for rendering "pig"s, and settlers. An entity of class "vietnamese_pot_bellied_pig" would still get rendered as a "pig", because although sear has no specific model for rendering that type of creature, it can infer from the taxonomy that it is a type of "pig". I apologise if I have misused some Semantic Web terminology above, but I think it should be reasonably clear what I mean. Al -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : /archive/attachments/20030110/dc35bf79/attachment.bin From dragonm at hypercubepc.com Fri Jan 10 15:23:55 2003 From: dragonm at hypercubepc.com (Dragon Master) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] 2 possible sulutions to the GPL server hole. In-Reply-To: <20020402154114.A18656@pulsion.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Al Riddoch wrote: > On Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 11:07:00AM -0500, Jason Oppel wrote: > > As I understand it the README.txt in most of our code states that you > > can "use GPL v2 or any later versions as published by the FSF." When > > the FSF comes out with the next version of the GPL which IIRC closes the > > server whole our code can be used under those terms. > > > > None of the code I have submitted contains the line you quote above, > permitting redistribution under a later version, so for cyphesis-C++, > this is not the case. > > Al Metaserver is also licensed without the "any later version" language. It's also written such that the only valid license for it is the license distributed with it -- the version of the GPL provided may match the version hosted by the FSF, but if it does not, the version distributed with the code applies, not the FSF version. DM From novalis at novalis.org Fri Jan 10 16:50:58 2003 From: novalis at novalis.org (David Turner) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] 2 possible sulutions to the GPL server hole. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1042235459.7657.22910.camel@banks> On Fri, 2003-01-10 at 16:23, Dragon Master wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Al Riddoch wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 11:07:00AM -0500, Jason Oppel wrote: > > > As I understand it the README.txt in most of our code states that you > > > can "use GPL v2 or any later versions as published by the FSF." When > > > the FSF comes out with the next version of the GPL which IIRC closes the > > > server whole our code can be used under those terms. > > > > > > > None of the code I have submitted contains the line you quote above, > > permitting redistribution under a later version, so for cyphesis-C++, > > this is not the case. > > > > Al > > Metaserver is also licensed without the "any later version" language. > It's also written such that the only valid license for it is the license > distributed with it -- the version of the GPL provided may match the > version hosted by the FSF, but if it does not, the version distributed > with the code applies, not the FSF version. FSF hasn't put out a newer version than 2. Version 2 has auto-upgrade as a *option*, depending on your copyright notice. If you don't have the any-later-version bit in your copyright notice, then it's v2 only. Version 3 (according to the latest I've seen) will work the same way. BTW, a prototype for GPL3 (although with many patches missing, including Dr. Altaica's) is the Affero license (http://www.affero.org/oagpl.html). The AGPL closes the "server hole". It's definately worth looking into for WF. Note that it does autoupgrade to GPL3. -- -Dave Turner Stalk Me: 617 441 0668 "On matters of style, swim with the current, on matters of principle, stand like a rock." -Thomas Jefferson From bear at code-bear.dyndns.org Sun Jan 12 22:18:47 2003 From: bear at code-bear.dyndns.org (IRC Bookmark) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] BM: Media Preparation Library and Procedural Map Library (#lounge) Message-ID: Latest finding from #lounge at 22:18 on Sunday, 12nd January: Description: Media Preparation Library and Procedural Map Library URL: http://code-bear.dyndns.org/jasmine/%23lounge/2003-01-12,21%3A22.html#Media_Prep ____________________ This is a bookmark function of the log module for Jasmine. Use "!log:bookmark ", it will update the bookmark.html and posts links the correct email address. Note that many times discussion starts earlier than bookmark place. From bear at code-bear.dyndns.org Mon Jan 13 20:25:40 2003 From: bear at code-bear.dyndns.org (IRC Bookmark) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] BM: Terrain Generation Meeting (#forge) Message-ID: Latest finding from #forge at 20:25 on Monday, 13rd January: Description: Terrain Generation Meeting URL: http://code-bear.dyndns.org/jasmine/%23forge/2003-01-13,20%3A12.html#Terrain_Ge ____________________ This is a bookmark function of the log module for Jasmine. Use "!log:bookmark ", it will update the bookmark.html and posts links the correct email address. Note that many times discussion starts earlier than bookmark place. From mike at utisolutions.com Tue Jan 14 22:20:40 2003 From: mike at utisolutions.com (Mike Taylor) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update Message-ID: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> Can everyone email me with the latest projects you are working on and their status if you're the coordinator. Include team members if possible and include idle, abandoned and plain ol' gossip items! bear From rsteinke at w-link.net Tue Jan 14 19:38:26 2003 From: rsteinke at w-link.net (rsteinke@w-link.net) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Re: Project Info and Status update Message-ID: <3E24D7B2.nailLEP111UMR@w-link.net> > Can everyone email me with the latest projects you are working on and > their status if you're the coordinator. > > Include team members if possible and include idle, abandoned and plain > ol' gossip items! > > bear Okay, here goes: wfmath: (mine) This has seen a few bugfixes over the last six months, but not much change in functionality. It's slowly twitching along towards 0.3, with the most major work needed being some research on 2D polygon intersection check functions, to get a decent algorithm. janus: (going to be mine, currently unmaintained) I'm going to be taking this over, and making truly cross-widget-set, instead of very libuta specific. Waiting on wftk 0.6, and the widget packing spec bear is working on, before work on janus can start. eris: (James') Sent James patches to allow multiple character logins over the same connection, added Perl bindings, moved the Gtk+ polling class over from silence. Simon and alriddoch have recently been asking me about libuta bindings, which will probably just involve copying in some uclient code. uclient: (malcolm's) Got rid of old module loader code, about halfway through moving to Eris. I haven't really worked on uclient since about mid-November. wftk: (malcolm's) Currently helping malcolm with code cleanup. I'd like to see a better mainloop (select() instead of sleep()), more efficient drawing code, and a widget packing system. Ron "The sound of gunfire, off in the distance. I'm getting used to it now." -- Talking Heads From derek at ebollocks.net Thu Jan 16 13:43:36 2003 From: derek at ebollocks.net (Derek Gladding) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Intermittent outages on victoria over the next 4 days Message-ID: <200301161343.36859.derek@ebollocks.net> Hi folks I'm doing a bunch of work on all the machines in my office over the next four days, including victoria. She's going to have the RAID array replaced and completely rebuilt and given a kernel upgrade. This will need a few days for stability testing before she's known-good again, so please expect random outages between about 4 hours from now and Monday morning. - Derek From alriddoch at zepler.org Thu Jan 16 21:43:58 2003 From: alriddoch at zepler.org (Alistair Riddoch) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update In-Reply-To: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> References: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> Message-ID: <20030116214358.GB7752@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Atlas-C++: (mine) No changes on stable version for many months, except build files for MacOS X committed by James. The development version of the code is coming along between me working on other areas. Issues with the next version of the protocol are still in discussion. The main objective of this tree is to massively improve performance both on and off the wire, implement new highly efficient codecs, support datagram communication in addition to the current stream stuff, and be much more flexible about the type of entity ids, so types more efficient than string like in, or more expressive can be used. It seems inevitable that the protocol will change so much that line compatibility will be lost, and the API is so fundamentally changed that major porting will be required. Every effort will be made to ensure the new Atlas-C++ will peacefully coexist with the old, and that a single application can support both dialects of the Atlas protocol. cyphesis-C++: (mine) cyphesis-C++ 0.2 for Mason 0.1 has been released, and since then there have been minor bug fixes, and database code has been ported to be compatible with the latest PostgreSQL release. This code is now available from cvs on a branch tagged cyphesis-0_2-stable. The development version of cyphesis-C++, with the nominal version number 0.3 is proceeding well. The world is now persistent using the database code, and entity ids are now handled much better, and are much better at being unique. equator: (mine) This world builder client is poised for major development with the recent developments in cyphesis-C++. It has recently been ported to work with the now stable gtkmm 2.0 and 2.2 series. Many new world editing features are likely to be added over the next few months. It can currently connect to a server and display a simple schematic view of the world, overlaid with height data. A stable branch that built against gtkmm 1.2 should be considered dead. Mercator: (myself, munin and others) This is a new library based on ideas from munin, initially kicked off in development by me, and to be implemented by myself and others based on prototype work by munin. Its purpose is to deterministically generate world data using quasi-random algorithms based on fixed seeds. It is to be used simultaneously by both server and client to enable a rich world to be defined without having to transfer massive quantities of data between client and server. Currently just stub files have been checked into cvs, while munin works on the prototype in matlab. The first step will be code to generate terrain height data. apogee: (mine) This test platform 3D client has now been resurrected for testing. It will likely be used in the near future as a testbed for mercator. Currently useful if you want a very literal view of what is going on in a server, without the prettiness of sear. Venus: (mine) This demo media server now works in principle and can be used by uclient. Intended as a basic idea to trigger further thinking and development. process: (mine) process attempts a number of routine operations with a local server. It is designed to ensure servers behave, and to quickly check that normal and illegal operations do not make the server crash. Periodic updates as the protocol has been thrashed out. process now verifies that the server is using attribute ids correctly. Server developers should verify that process runs against their server before each check-in. Eris: (James) Made a few bug fixes, mostly revealed by sear. Al -- Alistair Riddoch alriddoch@zepler.org http://zepler.org/~alriddoch/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : /archive/attachments/20030116/12878b38/attachment.bin From Damien.McGinnes at defence.gov.au Fri Jan 17 11:23:43 2003 From: Damien.McGinnes at defence.gov.au (McGinnes, Damien) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] RE: Project Info and Status update sec: unclassified Message-ID: A bit slow on Stage at the moment. I have been working on server side visibility again. Stage limits the player view to a sphere around their avatar. Message broadcasts are also limited by range. Portals make sure the view is correct even across containers My current effort is to limit the player view by using shaped portals between containers. This means that you will see a wedge of a room when you look through a door rather than seeing the whole room. me a | c + | d D b | e so in the above diagram, D is an open door + would see a, b and e. I'm not sure how efficient this will be, but just getting it working is my first aim. (probably 50% done) Damien > -----Original Message----- > From: Alistair Riddoch [mailto:alriddoch@zepler.org] > Sent: Friday, 17 January 2003 08:44 > To: general@worldforge.org > Subject: Re: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update > > > > Atlas-C++: (mine) > > No changes on stable version for many months, except > build files for > MacOS X committed by James. > > The development version of the code is coming along > between me working > on other areas. Issues with the next version of the protocol are > still in discussion. The main objective of this tree is > to massively > improve performance both on and off the wire, implement new highly > efficient codecs, support datagram communication in > addition to the > current stream stuff, and be much more flexible about the type of > entity ids, so types more efficient than string like in, or more > expressive can be used. It seems inevitable that the protocol will > change so much that line compatibility will be lost, and the API > is so fundamentally changed that major porting will be required. > Every effort will be made to ensure the new Atlas-C++ > will peacefully > coexist with the old, and that a single application can support > both dialects of the Atlas protocol. > > cyphesis-C++: (mine) > > cyphesis-C++ 0.2 for Mason 0.1 has been released, and since then > there have been minor bug fixes, and database code has been ported > to be compatible with the latest PostgreSQL release. This code > is now available from cvs on a branch tagged cyphesis-0_2-stable. > > The development version of cyphesis-C++, with the nominal version > number 0.3 is proceeding well. The world is now persistent using > the database code, and entity ids are now handled much better, and > are much better at being unique. > > equator: (mine) > > This world builder client is poised for major development with the > recent developments in cyphesis-C++. It has recently been > ported to > work with the now stable gtkmm 2.0 and 2.2 series. Many new world > editing features are likely to be added over the next few months. > It can currently connect to a server and display a simple > schematic > view of the world, overlaid with height data. > > A stable branch that built against gtkmm 1.2 should be > considered dead. > > Mercator: (myself, munin and others) > > This is a new library based on ideas from munin, initially kicked > off in development by me, and to be implemented by myself and > others based on prototype work by munin. Its purpose is to > deterministically generate world data using quasi-random > algorithms > based on fixed seeds. It is to be used simultaneously by both > server and client to enable a rich world to be defined > without having > to transfer massive quantities of data between client and server. > > Currently just stub files have been checked into cvs, while munin > works on the prototype in matlab. The first step will be code > to generate terrain height data. > > apogee: (mine) > > This test platform 3D client has now been resurrected for > testing. It > will likely be used in the near future as a testbed for mercator. > Currently useful if you want a very literal view of what is going > on in a server, without the prettiness of sear. > > Venus: (mine) > > This demo media server now works in principle and can be used by > uclient. Intended as a basic idea to trigger further thinking and > development. > > process: (mine) > > process attempts a number of routine operations with a > local server. > It is designed to ensure servers behave, and to quickly check > that normal and illegal operations do not make the server crash. > > Periodic updates as the protocol has been thrashed out. > process now > verifies that the server is using attribute ids correctly. Server > developers should verify that process runs against their server > before each check-in. > > Eris: (James) > > Made a few bug fixes, mostly revealed by sear. > > Al > -- > Alistair Riddoch > alriddoch@zepler.org > http://zepler.org/~alriddoch/ > From zakalawe at mac.com Thu Jan 16 22:29:34 2003 From: zakalawe at mac.com (James Turner) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update In-Reply-To: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 03:20 am, Mike Taylor wrote: Eris - Ron added some new features to permit multiple characters, some other 'multiple' features (eg multiple worlds) have been considered. Various bugs have been squashed, thanks to Ron, Simon and the dime team exploring more of the feature set. Stage - Rather slow development, I've done almost nothing (sort of, explanation in a minute), Damien has continue to hack the view / agent logic which is now getting rather clever and generally useful. The physics code and movement has also been bug-fixed and tested more so sear can connect and interact with stage. Mac OS-X - I've been doing up ProjectBuilder files for a few libs (Atlas and WFMath so far) so these libs can be built ridiculously easily on OS-X (pbxbuild does it all). I am likely to continue in this vein since it's positively thrilling compared to autoXXXX fiddling, though I intend to keep both working. Once wftk stabilizes a bit I shall be trying to get it built as a framework too, and if people have specific things they'd like packaged i can look into it. Obviously getting a complete client going would be nice. The Semi-Secret Project I'm working on an idea I was discussing over Christmas to build an in-game engine for stage heavily tied to a scripting language. This will be a separate process which stage execs() (or something), and takes care of some of the in-game work. This is all very, very early days, nothing working right now but coming along steadily. As soon as it does something useful (like processing a single Atlas op off the wire from stage) I'll make a proper announcement. Anyway, this is my excuse for not doing 'overt' stage hacking. Oh, it's called 'Indri'. After the lemur. Because the scripting engine is SpiderMonkey, the hellspawn of Seamonkey. If that sentence made no sense to you, then clearly your day job doesn't involve screaming at Mozilla ... okay, maybe it does, but not screaming at the Mozilla code. H&H James -- There is no such thing as a humble opinion. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2076 bytes Desc: not available Url : /archive/attachments/20030116/25cc0d6e/attachment.bin From oliver.white at invensys.com Fri Jan 17 13:32:22 2003 From: oliver.white at invensys.com (oliver.white@invensys.com) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update Message-ID: FYI, http://www.mozilla.org/js/spidermonkey/ But why javascript, dude? -- Oli >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, it's called 'Indri'. After the lemur. Because the scripting engine is SpiderMonkey, the hellspawn of Seamonkey. If that sentence made no sense to you, then clearly your day job doesn't involve screaming at Mozilla ... okay, maybe it does, but not screaming at the Mozilla code. H&H James -- There is no such thing as a humble opinion. From llnz at paradise.net.nz Fri Jan 17 17:42:52 2003 From: llnz at paradise.net.nz (Lee Begg) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Re: [WF-World] Project Info and Status update In-Reply-To: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> References: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> Message-ID: <200301171742.52343.llnz@paradise.net.nz> Worlds development: ((Acting) Coordinator) ------------------------------ Slowly but surely is probably the best phase to describe worlds development. We now have two continents, Dural and Sym. Last year saw the first version of the Duralsaur, and the groundwork for automatic creation of future Duralsuars and website. More info on world@worldforge.org or #worlds Archipelago: (Mine) ------------------ Not much progress lately, lack of creativity and drive. All that has been done so far is online. More info on rules@worldforge.org or #archipelago Muse: (Mine) --------- Started development on this client side media retreval system with a hiss and a roar early last year but progress stall when no spec or help was forecoming with defining what clients want, what atlas provides and how it all fits together. I was wanting to write the media server. More info on client@worldforge.org or #muse Thousand Parsec: (mithro and others) --------------------------- After nearly a year of planning we are starting development. The server is currently written in C++ and mithro is working on the client. Looking at passing first milestone in Feb. More info on #tp Later Lee Begg From zakalawe at mac.com Fri Jan 17 17:36:08 2003 From: zakalawe at mac.com (James Turner) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project update follow-up, aka as 'why JS' Message-ID: <29D06BEF-2A42-11D7-874E-0003939CB1CE@mac.com> [Apologies for not replying directly, I managed to break my list subscription. It turns out mailman can handle 'Re: ' in confirmation replies, but not the fancy line which mac OS-X mail prepends ... suppose I'd better investigate that one] Basically, because I don't like Python syntax, and I wanted a rich language which other people were embedding and which you could go out a buy a book on. Plus I already know the API a bit, the language a lot, and even the people behind it, from my day job. No doubt there are may other languages out there that would also suffice, I just didn't pick them. There are also multiple JavaScript (ECMAScript really) implementations, KJS for example, that I could have picked. Again, i picked up the closest thing to hand and got it working. It was pretty trivial so far. I've had a few JS headaches already, and expect more, but on the other hand the guts of the impl is exceedingly mature, and has some really nice features, like a fully thread-safe API and semi-automatic garbage collection. So, that's my reasons. I intend to do a Python interface too once the prototype is working, btw, since some people just won't let Python go ;-) H&H James -- You whine like a mule. You are still alive! From jonathan.barker2 at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 17 21:44:10 2003 From: jonathan.barker2 at ntlworld.com (Jonathan Barker) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update In-Reply-To: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> References: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> Message-ID: <3E28792A.9070505@ntlworld.com> I have been sort-of working on a 3D client for a while, based on the nebula device (http://nebuladevice.sf.net). It currently connects to eris, and loads entities and things, yet has some issues with eris (not sure whose code the bugs are in). It also lacks a name, I suppose I could use the somewhat cliche 'nclient', (kinda cute since the nebula naming convention for modules goes 'n...'). I haven't yet committed anything to CVS, and the build is a mess (had to be heavily hacked to get mingw32 to compile it), but if anybody's interested, please let me know. Jonny (Topaz) Mike Taylor wrote: >Can everyone email me with the latest projects you are working on and >their status if you're the coordinator. > >Include team members if possible and include idle, abandoned and plain >ol' gossip items! > >bear > >_______________________________________________ >General mailing list >General@mail.worldforge.org >http://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general > > > > From alriddoch at zepler.org Fri Jan 17 22:33:55 2003 From: alriddoch at zepler.org (Alistair Riddoch) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update In-Reply-To: <3E28792A.9070505@ntlworld.com> References: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisolutions.com> <3E28792A.9070505@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20030117223355.GA7614@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> On Fri, Jan 17, 2003 at 09:44:10PM +0000, Jonathan Barker wrote: > I have been sort-of working on a 3D client for a while, based on the > nebula device (http://nebuladevice.sf.net). It currently connects to > eris, and loads entities and things, yet has some issues with eris (not > sure whose code the bugs are in). It also lacks a name, I suppose I > could use the somewhat cliche 'nclient', (kinda cute since the nebula > naming convention for modules goes 'n...'). I haven't yet committed > anything to CVS, and the build is a mess (had to be heavily hacked to > get mingw32 to compile it), but if anybody's interested, please let me know. > Please call it something more interesting than nclient. When I'm trying to come up with something like this I usuallly stick related words into a thesaurus. fooclient names are just boring. Al -- Alistair Riddoch alriddoch@zepler.org http://zepler.org/~alriddoch/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : /archive/attachments/20030117/2e6151cc/attachment.bin From apark at cdf.toronto.edu Sat Jan 18 02:07:12 2003 From: apark at cdf.toronto.edu (Andrew Park) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] wanna help noob? Message-ID: Hi, I've read the docs suggested by worldforge.org, but still do not have much clue. So is there anyone who can help me get started? I'm interested in server side (python) development. Thanks Andrew Park ________________________________________________________________________ CDFlab Systems Administrator www.cdf.toronto.edu GnuPG Signature www.cdf.utoronto.ca/~apark/public_key.txt ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From alriddoch at zepler.org Sat Jan 18 18:38:26 2003 From: alriddoch at zepler.org (Alistair Riddoch) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:18 2003 Subject: [WF-General] wanna help noob? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030118183826.GA14678@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> On Sat, Jan 18, 2003 at 02:07:12AM -0500, Andrew Park wrote: > Hi, > > I've read the docs suggested by worldforge.org, but still do not have > much clue. So is there anyone who can help me get started? I'm interested > in server side (python) development. > Thanks > To learn more I recommend you try downloading some of our code and getting it working. Most of the usable stuff is available from our ftp site, and the whole lot can be found in cvs. The main playable things at the moment are the clients uclient and sear, and the server cyphesis. You will need mosts of the libs on the ftp if you want to compile these programs yourself. Most of them include README files which explain the basics. Al -- Alistair Riddoch alriddoch@zepler.org http://zepler.org/~alriddoch/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : /archive/attachments/20030118/7fc5b66f/attachment.bin From hans.haggstrom at helsinki.fi Sun Jan 19 01:53:22 2003 From: hans.haggstrom at helsinki.fi (Hans =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E4ggstr=F6m?=) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update In-Reply-To: <66BB4BC2AB56F14D87F3439D3936806F02CB49@oggok.office.utisol utions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030119014322.01cc8d68@ml.mappi.helsinki.fi> At 22:20 2003-01-14 -0500, bear wrote: >Can everyone email me with the latest projects you are working on and >their status if you're the coordinator. > >Include team members if possible and include idle, abandoned and plain >ol' gossip items! > >bear Here's a list of WorldForge projects that I'm more or less active in: Plant Edit ========== Description ----------- A 3D L-Systems based fractal plant editor, for producing trees and other plants to generated landscapes. Plants will implement the media object interface and format, to enable easy integration with other media and clients. Implemented in Java using Java3D, application framework, and media object support libs. Progress -------- Implementation starting, initial planning done. Status ------ Active. Priority -------- Medium importance. Not needed until Mercator produces static tree game objects. Team ---- zzorn as project coordinator, other coders welcome, although more tasks will be found when the basic architecture is ready. Media Object Editor =================== Description ----------- A browser for any media objects, and an editor for normal 3D mesh media objects and composite media objects, with features to select the mesh(es) and texture(s) for a media object, to apply transformations (such as scaling) on the mesh, and operations (such as hue, saturation & luminance adjustment) on textures. Texture composing from multiple textures also supported (to create overlays for wounds, clothes, etc). The transformations and modifications can be parametrized, and the parameters can be specified when the media object is instantiated. Implemented in Java using Java3D, application framework, and media object support libs. Progress -------- Early concept design. Status ------ Not very active at the moment. Priority -------- High priority, as this implements the first and most simple types of media objects, and some of the common functionality for media object parametrization. Team ---- zzorn as project coordinator. Blueprint Editor (Gaudi) ======================== Description ----------- Editor for creating and modifying blueprints that describe houses and other structures. The first iteration will implement a blueprint editor with a simple feature set, just selection of building block and building block texture set, and inserting and removing building blocks to different places of the blueprint. Iteration two will add groups, copy & paste, a prefab library that interesting objects can be stored in, and a material datatype that contains other parameters instead of just texture sets. Later iterations will add point, line, area, and room templates, for quick and easy creation of large and complex structures, and for advanced parametrization of buildings. Implemented in Java using Java3D, application framework, and media object support libs. A C++ port of some part of the functionality may be needed to enable in-game blueprint design. Progress -------- User interface ideas and much other design done, some of it online (although a bit outdated). Coding not yet started. Status ------ Dormant at the moment. Priority -------- Relatively high. Team ---- zzorn as project coordinator. Leonardo Paint (Image editor) ============================= Description ----------- A new generation paint program, approaching image editing from a new perspective. Allows expert users to create parametrized brushes and tools, that can use image information and user input to drive parametrized vector-based output. Will also support arbitrary data channels for an image, allowing users to edit and preview bump maps and reflection maps, or to create heightmaps with various map data (for example temperature, rainfall, vegetation, etc). Features like direct on model skin painting for 3D models is also planned. Implemented in Java, using Java Advanced Imaging, possibly hardware accelerated with Java3D. Will also use the application framework. Progress -------- At alpha level, painting to RGB bitmaps and parametrized brushes implemented, some important features like undo, translucent paint, loading & saving, and image panning will be needed for the first public beta version. (Available in cvs at forge/tools/leonardo ) Status ------ Ongoing, but not very active the last weeks. Priority -------- Medium. Mainly done because it's fun and the author thinks the world could use a program like this, but it could be useful for map drawing and texture generation in WF also. Team ---- zzorn as project coordinator. Media Object Library ==================== Description ----------- Support library for media objects. Mainly intended for client, but the server may need geometrical information on objects (like trees) too. The library takes care of generating textures or 3D models with animations + textures from the media object description. The media object remains active after instantiation, and is used to interpret behaviour and state change information from the game object, allowing triggering of animations and updating of textures as needed (for example, creating a texture with wound overlays as the hitpoints of the game object changes, or updating the cloth textures when a character changes clothes). The media object library is mainly used for 3D graphics, but could also be used for procedural 2D graphics, like building a map picture from reused elements and generated text strings. Because of parametrization, many 3D objects may require unique textures instead of using shared textures. To address this, in the optimization phase of this library it should be tested if this is likely to be a problem, and if so some techniques implemented to reduce texture requirements, like reducing size, or ignoring small changes to less important textures. Reference implementation will be coded in Java, and used in the various media object editors and Java clients. The Java version will use Java3D. A C++ implementation will be needed for easy interoperability with clients and servers, and for maximum speed. Progress -------- Planning stage. Some design ideas exist. Status ------ Relatively active, as it is needed by all the media object editors. Priority -------- High. Needed by media object editors, as well as for taking full advantage of the modular models produced by the 3D media team. Team ---- zzorn as project coordinator. Others welcome. Application- and editor framework ================================= Description ----------- Java application framework, with support for commands, documents, document elements, saving & loading, undo/redo, drag and drop support, menubar, toolbar, statusbar, tool panels, and document views. Also a package to collect various reusable widgets in will be included. Internationalization is a possible future feature too. Useful outside WF also, so will be split into a separate library (currently included in acolyte in cvs at forge/libs/java ). Implemented with Java 1.4. Progress -------- Partially implemented (commands, undo & redo), but needs some changes and refactorings. Status ------ Relatively active (used by all the media object editors and Leonardo Paint). Priority -------- High. Team ---- zzorn as project coordinator. Additional members welcome. Mercator ======== Description ----------- Library for procedural map generation on both the client and server. Will create terrain geometry, terrain type, and static objects (trees, rocks, etc). Rivers, roads, and other such things are planned also. Later features could include generation of dynamical (moving) objects (like animals), and simulation of their population, habitats, prey/predator relationships, and migration, using climate, terrain, and player killed/captured/released animals as input. Implemented in C++, with prototype algorithms in mathlab initially. May integrate with equator and WF support libs. Progress -------- Simple terrain prototype algorithm coming along nicely in mathlab, C++ coding will start after it is done. Status ------ Active. Priority -------- High. We need a good procedural map generator, to easily create and transfer large maps. Team ---- Alriddoch, Munin, zzorn. Others welcome. 3D Media Project ================ Description ----------- Creating 3D game media for Mason and future games, as well as improving the media formats and creation processes. Progress -------- Many existing models and textures, mostly animals and forest vegetation. More tools, humans, animals, and vegetation is needed. The MakeHuamn blender plugin could be used for producing human meshes (perhaps integrated as a parametrized media object later too). Status ------ Active. Priority -------- High (3D media is needed for mason and other games) Team ---- Munin, zzorn, ChienNoir, nowhere, RTSan, others. New 3D and 2D (concept sketches & textures) artists very welcome. Dime ==== Description ----------- A configurable client. Progress -------- Fairly well underway, although not yet a playable client. Status ------ Recent progress in integration with Ogre for 3D graphics. Priority -------- Relatively high. Team ---- Nikal, XMP, Aglanor, zzorn (as lurker), others. Durabuild ========= Description ----------- Python script for creating web, and in the future latex, documents from input html files with embedded durascript processing instructions. Progress -------- Generates web pages, some extra functionality needed for latex generation, and new scripts could be implemented also. Some bugs to fix, and image handling to be designed and implemented (automatic scaling to width & height values of images, copying to output dir). Status ------ Dormant. zzorn is currently working on other things. Priority -------- Relatively high. The world team needs this to publish their writings, and to be sure the formats and templates they use are ok. Team ---- zzorn. Searching for new maintainer, as I'm busy with (many) other things. If none found, then I can continue maintaining this too. Sphereworld =========== Description ----------- A testbed for creating agents living in a simulated (game) world. The objective is to follow the subsumption architecture and the vertebrate brain evolution, and initially create simple food seeking agents, and later add vertebrate like direct associative memory, and other types of memory and cognitive faculties, to at last arrive at intelligent, learning, emotional agents. After that, techniques like mixing the basic knowledge base from a number of sub cultures, and varied simulation detail, as well as interaction with human players, could be investigated to allow the use of the techniques in massive multiplayer games. The simulated world the agents live in works at the same time as a prototype of a modularized server. Implemented in Java. Java 3D might be used for visualization. Progress -------- Initial skeleton world in development. Some planning done. Status ------ Low activity at the moment, but I'll probably work on it occasionally. Priority -------- Low. A long range research project. Team ---- zzorn as project coordinator, others welcome. Experimental Server Panthera ============================ Description ----------- Experiment with Java based server ideas, for example game object properties that depend on other game object properties, and lazy updating of them. Use of JEE features to be investigated later. Progress -------- Many more or less interesting ideas generated, some code that ended up in dead ends. Status ------ Dormant. To be revived perhaps when the editors are complete, or perhaps joined with other Java server projects, like Pangea(?). Priority -------- Low. Not needed right now. Team ---- zzorn -- Hans H?ggstr?m (a.k.a. zzorn) From miguelg at tid.es Mon Jan 20 15:35:15 2003 From: miguelg at tid.es (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Miguel_Guzm=E1n?=) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Project Info and Status update References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030119014322.01cc8d68@ml.mappi.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <3E2C0923.5050904@tid.es> Hi, Here's a description of the things I (Aglanor) am working on: ACTIVE PROJECTS ----------------------- Dime (expanded from zzorn's; Martin, please correct it if there's something wrong): Description ----------- A framework to build a series of worldforge clients. http://www.worldforge.org/dev/eng/clients/dime (outdated web) It is composed by: - services: the services are the lowest level modules and take care of basic stuff such as server connection, configuration, input, sound, widgets, etc. Mostly they're iterfaces to external libraries (Configuration Service for varconf, Sound Service for OpenAL, Server Service for Eris, etc) that offer an uniform behavior to the framework. - framework: it glues the services together providing interfaces to the upper modules (the components) and hiding the internals of the services (for instance hiding the callback signals). - components: components use the framework and possibly other high-level libraries to create an application that meets the requirement for a worldforge client. The current components are the main Dime component built on SDL and the Ogre component which uses the Ogre 3D engine. Progress /Status ---------------- Progress continues steadily, although is not yet a playable client. The Dime component can connect to a server and do most things that do not require graphical interaction, such as OOG chat and character creation. Lacks a graphical display of the world and entities. The Ogre component can connect to a game server and display the world map and the entities on it. The GUI support is very poor so is currently unplayable (i.e.: no server selection, no character creation, etc.). Also we lack a variety of Ogre media or cal3d converter, so the representation of the world is not accurate (while we see no problem with every entity being a Squirrel of Doom, some people may dissent). Priority -------- Relatively high. Team ---- Nikal: project manager Xmp: framework and main SDL component Aglanor: Ogre 3D component, OpenAL sound service Zzorn: as lurker Also, code and help from Aloril, Tim Elderling, Adam Gregory, Joel Schander and others. Test and error reports by Daedalus, razor123 and others (if I'm missing someone please tell me) Cronos ===== Description ------------ Cronos is a fantasy world, being developed in the spanish language. Cronos' team focuses on the world setting rather than in the game implementation (so Cronos can be used for a tabletop RPG, for a worldforge (or another system) game or for a literary book), our goal is to create a vast and rich world complex, detailed and coherent (for instance, elven and orcish places and names are named on elven and orcish languages which are also being developed). Comprehensive and uniform history, geography, races and characters descriptions and native languages is what makes a world deep and realistic, and over that foundation we've also created plenty of fancy content: currently we've got worldbooks, tales, illustrations and music, and much more to come. Please visit our homepage (in spanish) for more information: http://victor.worldforge.org/~cronos/ Rules System ========= Description ------------ A proposal for a rules system to be used within Worldforge http://www.worldforge.org/dev/content/rules/rules_system/ The proposed rules sytem starts from the Circe pen & paper game rules and extends them to a model for computer simulation striving for realism and flexibility. Progress /Status ---------------- Work on this is going on. Currently the gordian knot is to define how the actions are going to be implemented on the server, though James' interfaces seem the way to go. Team ------ Compiled by Miguel Guzm?n (Aglanor), based on Bryce's Circe, design and comments by Hans H?ggstr?m (zzorn), Damien McGinnes (damien), Joel Schander (nullstar), Niels L. Ellegaard (Niels), Mike Taylor (bear), Kai Blin (nowhere), Hip?lito Guzm?n (Paul-E). PLANNED PROJECTS Worldforge Ontology ============== Description ------------ A proposal to define a ontology for the worldforge system, so its elements can hold semantic metadata in the form of RDF tags. Status ------ Planning. I'm currently gathering information on the subject. Please contact me for ideas / suggestions. IDLE PROJECTS Pantaleon ======= Description ------------ Pantaleon is intended to be a turn-based strategy game, pretty much like stars! but in a fantasy setting. http://www.worldforge.org/dev/systems/pantaleon Status ------ Though we're still interested in this project, it is being delayed due to lack of time. Team ------ Juan Jes?s Garc?a (Skandalfo), Miguel Guzm?n (Aglanor) Cartography ========= Description ------------ An area of worldforge devoted to the creation of cartographic maps. This has been idle mainly beacuse of the unstable state of the application which was being used to create the maps (Sodipodi), but now that current sodipodi works fine, it might be worth to give it another look. Worldforge Cartography page: http://www.worldforge.org/dev/eng/editors/cartography [note: bear, don't put this link in the summary, it's for internal info only, I'll add this link to the Cartography page] A sample Cronos map done with Sodipodi: http://purple.worldforge.org/~aglanor/mapa_prueba_2.bmp [/note] ABANDONED PROJECTS YUP === http://www.worldforge.org/dev/eng/clients/yup YUP was a project by Adam and Aglanor which intended to be a worldforge client built mainly on existing libraries to speed up development, and was heavily based on the Crystalspace 3D engine for the view rendering. YUP efforts were redirected into dime, which had the same intention but with a broader scope (creating a framework for clients). Most useful code was ported to dime so YUP is no longer in developent. In case anyone wants to use crystalspace for a game client the logical step is to continue work on the Crystalspace component for dime, which is within dime on CVS, though it is very obsolete because now the efforts are centered on the framework and the Ogre component. ******************** I think this pretty much sums it all, Regards, Aglanor From jason at oppel.net Mon Jan 20 21:50:35 2003 From: jason at oppel.net (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest Message-ID: <3E2CB57B.9030603@oppel.net> Hello all... I've been getting some opinions on IRC today on an idea I have and I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on the matter. Our current project logo (the old familiar globe/w an anvil + sword) while embodies a number of good concepts is something we can and should improve upon. The current logo has a number of faults which I list below in no particular order: * Doesn't scale well to different resolutions * Cannot be used effectively when only print in B&W * We have no source file for the image * The logo isn't and wouldn't translate well to a vector format (which would allow for easy scaling w/o loss of quality) * Doesn't have a polished look to reflect our project's level of maturity * A complicated design which makes it unsuitable for business cards, t-shirts etc. In this light I think the project could stand to refine its image (and its logo). What I'm proposing is that we have a new logo creation contest with the following guidelines. * The new logo should have similar elements as our old logo. In deference to the recognition and brand we've created with the old logo our new logo should contain one or all of the following elements from our old logo: an anvil, a sword or a globe/map to help foster familiarity when someone sees our new logo. * Should scale well down to very small resolutions (icon sizes for example) * Should be simplistic enough so that it can be print in B&W and still be attractive (ie on business cards, t-shirts etc) * Bonus points would be for logos already in or easily convertible to a vector format * Artists can submit more than one logo if they choose There are some other debatable points that I could list here such as what kind of feeling the logo should convey but I think I'll leave that to the artists (and voters) to decide. In the end we should have a vote to decide the winner. I'm sure there are other considerations that we need to take into account that I've missed so let's hear them! :-) -Jason From jason at oppel.net Mon Jan 20 22:09:35 2003 From: jason at oppel.net (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Media Meeting Sun Jan 26 1900GMT Message-ID: <3E2CB9EF.4040601@oppel.net> Let's have a media meeting this weekend on Sunday, Jan 26 1900GMT! If you're unsure what time that translates to for your part of the world you can visit here: http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/tzc.tzc We have a lot of ground to cover so we'll keep the peer review until last if everyone doesn't mind. The Agenda Includes: * Refining and updating the media TODO list * Logo Creation Contest * Status Update what is everyone working on (and what would you like to work on)? * New Artwork Peer Review Let me know if there's anything folks would like to add to the agenda. See ya there! -Jason From grim at xynesis.com Mon Jan 20 22:57:34 2003 From: grim at xynesis.com (Dan Tomalesky) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest In-Reply-To: <3E2CB57B.9030603@oppel.net> References: <3E2CB57B.9030603@oppel.net> Message-ID: <20030121035734.GB20975@xynesis.com> When's the submission deadline? Dan On Mon, Jan 20, 2003 at 09:50:35PM -0500, Jason Oppel wrote: > Hello all... I've been getting some opinions on IRC today on an idea I > have and I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on the matter. Our current > project logo (the old familiar globe/w an anvil + sword) while embodies > a number of good concepts is something we can and should improve upon. > The current logo has a number of faults which I list below in no > particular order: > > * Doesn't scale well to different resolutions > * Cannot be used effectively when only print in B&W > * We have no source file for the image > * The logo isn't and wouldn't translate well to a vector format (which > would allow for easy scaling w/o loss of quality) > * Doesn't have a polished look to reflect our project's level of maturity > * A complicated design which makes it unsuitable for business cards, > t-shirts etc. > > In this light I think the project could stand to refine its image (and > its logo). What I'm proposing is that we have a new logo creation > contest with the following guidelines. > > * The new logo should have similar elements as our old logo. In > deference to the recognition and brand we've created with the old logo > our new logo should contain one or all of the following elements from > our old logo: an anvil, a sword or a globe/map to help foster > familiarity when someone sees our new logo. > * Should scale well down to very small resolutions (icon sizes for example) > * Should be simplistic enough so that it can be print in B&W and still > be attractive (ie on business cards, t-shirts etc) > * Bonus points would be for logos already in or easily convertible to a > vector format > * Artists can submit more than one logo if they choose > > There are some other debatable points that I could list here such as > what kind of feeling the logo should convey but I think I'll leave that > to the artists (and voters) to decide. In the end we should have a vote > to decide the winner. I'm sure there are other considerations that we > need to take into account that I've missed so let's hear them! :-) > > -Jason > > _______________________________________________ > General mailing list > General@mail.worldforge.org > http://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general -- Aliquid melius quam pessimum optimum non est -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : /archive/attachments/20030120/9e96fd9a/attachment.bin From zakalawe at mac.com Tue Jan 21 09:42:32 2003 From: zakalawe at mac.com (James Turner) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest In-Reply-To: <3E2CB57B.9030603@oppel.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 02:50 am, Jason Oppel wrote: > In this light I think the project could stand to refine its image (and > its logo). What I'm proposing is that we have a new logo creation > contest with the following guidelines. > > * The new logo should have similar elements as our old logo. In > deference to the recognition and brand we've created with the old logo > our new logo should contain one or all of the following elements from > our old logo: an anvil, a sword or a globe/map to help foster > familiarity when someone sees our new logo. > * Should scale well down to very small resolutions (icon sizes for > example) > * Should be simplistic enough so that it can be print in B&W and still > be attractive (ie on business cards, t-shirts etc) > * Bonus points would be for logos already in or easily convertible to > a vector format > * Artists can submit more than one logo if they choose > + Should scale to something recognizable at icon size (possibly with some re-arangement, but the same stylistic elements. This is for favicons / desktop icons, etc. + The need for a decent vector version (SVG ideally) cannot be over-emphasized in my opinion. If this is too restrictive, fair enough. + Ideally, the logo should be adaptable for different products while still maintaining familiar elements ... maybe this is impossible too, though. As a side note, while it fits the name, the world roundel has been done to death, for every product under the sun, especially web browsers :-) So, I think it's maybe the bit that should go, to give the logo a more distinctive outline (whether that's the anvil or the sword or something new). On that note, SourceForge used to use the Anvil a bit, but have now drifted to a rather generic orange sphere ... so the 'mind-share' for Anvil logos is pretty open, especially compared to World ones. All IMO of course, I am not an artist, etc, etc. H&H James -- There is no such thing as a humble opinion. From miguelg at tid.es Tue Jan 21 15:48:52 2003 From: miguelg at tid.es (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Miguel_Guzm=E1n?=) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities References: <20021217181832.GC17254@pulsion.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <000201c2b5c3$912079b0$cdf1e40c@lotus> <20030110111757.GA21118@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3E2D5DD4.7030101@tid.es> Hello, I'd like to go a little more deeper into this ontology discussion, if you don't mind. I find ontologies very interesting and specially quite poweful for some stuff. Having done my little research, I have found specially interesting this bit from the cyc page (the commercial one): / The knowledge base is built upon a core of over 1,000,000 hand-entered assertions (or "rules") designed to capture a large portion of what we normally consider consensus knowledge about the world. For example, Cyc knows that trees are usually outdoors, that once people die they stop buying things, and that glasses of liquid should be carried rightside-up. / Perhaps ontologies (and specially ontologies like opencyc, which are open source and already done) can be used for much more than rendering the media on the client. The free version, Opencyc, plans to have 6000 concepts and 60000 assertion or rules between them, which is quite a huge amount of rules that we could use for our benefit. I am not aware of the internals of atlas / cyphesis so I could use a bit of orientation on how the entities are handled on the server, mainly I need to know if the entity hierarchy and the rules are harcoded on cyphesis or can be scripted in python (I suppose the later). I wonder up to what extent could something like the opencyc knowledge base can coexist with (i.e. added on top of) the current set of rules. Alistair Riddoch wrote: >> However, I can assure you that we are not hard coding the type information >> into clients. Our current code queries taxanomic information from >> the server at connection time, and uses this information to infer >> things, particularly how something should be rendered if it has >> no class specific rendering information. From the literature, it seems that an ontology is an more general concept than a taxonomy. I.e., while an ontology is a set of terms describing the concepts, relations and attributes of an area of knowledge, a taxonomy is an ontology which is just a hierarchy of concepts, but a taxonomy is still an ontology. I suppose that for a given system there could be a complex ontology (using metadata and relations) like the opencyc one but also a simpler taxonomy inferred from that metadata could be extracted from it in case some application doesn't need the power of a complex ontology (in fact, several taxonomies constructed with different criteria could be extracted from the same ontology). >> For example, sear renders anything thats class inherits from "character" >> using a standard human model, but has specific models for rendering >> "pig"s, and settlers. An entity of class "vietnamese_pot_bellied_pig" >> would still get rendered as a "pig", because although sear has no specific >> model for rendering that type of creature, it can infer from the taxonomy >> that it is a type of "pig". What I have in mind with the ontology is something like that, but more multidimensional. Suppose you have an apple tree, you could say it has blossomed, so a 3D client could add flower meshes to the base tree. Suppose you want to say it is old, the 3D client could paint it so it looks old (perhaps obscuring the mesh and making the trunk thicker), perhaps you might want to say it has apples, so the client can add apple meshes to it, and perhaps you might want to say it was burnt by a little fire some time ago so the client should paint parts of ir blackened. (Perhaps the example is not very accurate or realistic, but I hope I'm explaining myself). If you wanted to do a taxonomy of this you would need all the possible combinations along the hierarchy tree, while using an ontology you could simply give the entity some attributes: blossomed, with fruit, partially burnt, old. You might say, "why don't we simply give the tree some attributes or properties instead?". That's what an ontology is. An ontology is nothing more than formalizing this kind of propery assignment by using (for instance) rdf tags which are XML-like. Supposing a worldforge ontology, it would look more or less like the following: (warning: syntax can and will be wrong) If that looks like a glorified XML, it's because RDF is just a glorified XML. The power of such a description lies in a) the ontology used (the complexity and accuracy of the definitions for the concepts, relations and attributes) and b) the logic of the application that makes use of the ontology and the RDF data. For the ontology part, I think that's where the opencyc would come in handy. For the second part is where we could do some development (or even use some of the tools from OpenCyc, like the Rapid Knowledge Formation, thought I haven't looked at them in detail. (BTW, Cyc has a RDF spec for DAML: http://www.cyc.com/2002/04/08/cyc.daml, thought I don't know if this one is free or not. I suppose it is because of DAML being a standard, but from the page I can't tell for sure). So that's more or less where I am now. Perhaps the logical course of action would be to see which parts of the OpenCyc can be relevant in worldforge, and perhaps how could they be used by a client or a server. Ideas? Suggestions? Regards, Aglanor P.D.: I am writing a doc with all of this, though as I have to deliver it here it's being done in spanish, but basically it says the same stuff as this mail, only expanded. I'll translate it once it's finished. From bear at code-bear.dyndns.org Tue Jan 21 17:28:28 2003 From: bear at code-bear.dyndns.org (IRC Bookmark) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] BM: Realistic unarmed and sword fight simulation (#coders) Message-ID: Latest finding from #coders at 17:28 on Tuesday, 21st January: Description: Realistic unarmed and sword fight simulation URL: http://code-bear.dyndns.org/jasmine/%23coders/2003-01-21,16%3A51.html#Realistic_ ____________________ This is a bookmark function of the log module for Jasmine. Use "!log:bookmark ", it will update the bookmark.html and posts links the correct email address. Note that many times discussion starts earlier than bookmark place. From jason at oppel.net Tue Jan 21 15:58:02 2003 From: jason at oppel.net (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest In-Reply-To: <20030121035734.GB20975@xynesis.com> References: <3E2CB57B.9030603@oppel.net> <20030121035734.GB20975@xynesis.com> Message-ID: <3E2DB45A.7060605@oppel.net> I'm tentatively setting the submission deadline to be Feb 28th. More details about the contest will be forthcoming shortly. -Jason Dan Tomalesky wrote: >When's the submission deadline? > >Dan > > > From jason at oppel.net Tue Jan 21 16:18:51 2003 From: jason at oppel.net (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E2DB93B.4090504@oppel.net> James Turner wrote: > > + The need for a decent vector version (SVG ideally) cannot be > over-emphasized in my opinion. If this is too restrictive, fair enough. While it would be nice to have the new logos in vector format there aren't many tools that artists commonly use which support SVG. The best we could ask/hope for is a file submitted in a DXF, WRL, PSD or PSP files. That said I think not having a vector source file is fine that as long as the artwork can be transferred in and aesthetically suitable manner to one of the formats I mentioned earlier. > + Ideally, the logo should be adaptable for different products while > still maintaining familiar elements ... maybe this is impossible too, > though. One can make their design flexible to an extent but I think you're mainly relying on the creativeness of our artists to work out how to adapt an existing logo to other WF products. > > As a side note, while it fits the name, the world roundel has been > done to death, for every product under the sun, especially web > browsers :-) > So, I think it's maybe the bit that should go, to give the logo a more > distinctive outline (whether that's the anvil or the sword or > something new). > > On that note, SourceForge used to use the Anvil a bit, but have now > drifted to a rather generic orange sphere ... so the 'mind-share' for > Anvil logos is pretty open, especially compared to World ones. I can't argue with you there. That said I don't think we should rule anything out as someone may create a compelling logo which includes a globe. :-) -Jason From Administrator at LOGICMOO.mudshark.org Tue Jan 21 16:58:01 2003 From: Administrator at LOGICMOO.mudshark.org (Administrator) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities Message-ID: <664772D3D69BF640AE787ECC8BE41A84BDB2@12-228-241-205.client.attbi.com> Wow your explainations are very readable :) (and very correct from my knowledge) RDF namespacing is a great idea (in Atlas XML) For those that want smaller transaction sizes, there are also ways of creating a default namespaces. So that the can be sent as after thensmaspace context has been established. A lot of RDF aware libs generally can make this transparent to the generated XML tree. -Douglas -----Original Message----- From: general-admin@mail.worldforge.org [mailto:general-admin@mail.worldforge.org] On Behalf Of Miguel Guzm?n Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 6:49 AM To: general@worldforge.org Subject: Re: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities Hello, I'd like to go a little more deeper into this ontology discussion, if you don't mind. I find ontologies very interesting and specially quite poweful for some stuff. Having done my little research, I have found specially interesting this bit from the cyc page (the commercial one): / The knowledge base is built upon a core of over 1,000,000 hand-entered assertions (or "rules") designed to capture a large portion of what we normally consider consensus knowledge about the world. For example, Cyc knows that trees are usually outdoors, that once people die they stop buying things, and that glasses of liquid should be carried rightside-up. / Perhaps ontologies (and specially ontologies like opencyc, which are open source and already done) can be used for much more than rendering the media on the client. The free version, Opencyc, plans to have 6000 concepts and 60000 assertion or rules between them, which is quite a huge amount of rules that we could use for our benefit. I am not aware of the internals of atlas / cyphesis so I could use a bit of orientation on how the entities are handled on the server, mainly I need to know if the entity hierarchy and the rules are harcoded on cyphesis or can be scripted in python (I suppose the later). I wonder up to what extent could something like the opencyc knowledge base can coexist with (i.e. added on top of) the current set of rules. Alistair Riddoch wrote: >> However, I can assure you that we are not hard coding the type information >> into clients. Our current code queries taxanomic information from >> the server at connection time, and uses this information to infer >> things, particularly how something should be rendered if it has >> no class specific rendering information. From the literature, it seems that an ontology is an more general concept than a taxonomy. I.e., while an ontology is a set of terms describing the concepts, relations and attributes of an area of knowledge, a taxonomy is an ontology which is just a hierarchy of concepts, but a taxonomy is still an ontology. I suppose that for a given system there could be a complex ontology (using metadata and relations) like the opencyc one but also a simpler taxonomy inferred from that metadata could be extracted from it in case some application doesn't need the power of a complex ontology (in fact, several taxonomies constructed with different criteria could be extracted from the same ontology). >> For example, sear renders anything thats class inherits from "character" >> using a standard human model, but has specific models for rendering >> "pig"s, and settlers. An entity of class "vietnamese_pot_bellied_pig" >> would still get rendered as a "pig", because although sear has no specific >> model for rendering that type of creature, it can infer from the taxonomy >> that it is a type of "pig". What I have in mind with the ontology is something like that, but more multidimensional. Suppose you have an apple tree, you could say it has blossomed, so a 3D client could add flower meshes to the base tree. Suppose you want to say it is old, the 3D client could paint it so it looks old (perhaps obscuring the mesh and making the trunk thicker), perhaps you might want to say it has apples, so the client can add apple meshes to it, and perhaps you might want to say it was burnt by a little fire some time ago so the client should paint parts of ir blackened. (Perhaps the example is not very accurate or realistic, but I hope I'm explaining myself). If you wanted to do a taxonomy of this you would need all the possible combinations along the hierarchy tree, while using an ontology you could simply give the entity some attributes: blossomed, with fruit, partially burnt, old. You might say, "why don't we simply give the tree some attributes or properties instead?". That's what an ontology is. An ontology is nothing more than formalizing this kind of propery assignment by using (for instance) rdf tags which are XML-like. Supposing a worldforge ontology, it would look more or less like the following: (warning: syntax can and will be wrong) If that looks like a glorified XML, it's because RDF is just a glorified XML. The power of such a description lies in a) the ontology used (the complexity and accuracy of the definitions for the concepts, relations and attributes) and b) the logic of the application that makes use of the ontology and the RDF data. For the ontology part, I think that's where the opencyc would come in handy. For the second part is where we could do some development (or even use some of the tools from OpenCyc, like the Rapid Knowledge Formation, thought I haven't looked at them in detail. (BTW, Cyc has a RDF spec for DAML: http://www.cyc.com/2002/04/08/cyc.daml, thought I don't know if this one is free or not. I suppose it is because of DAML being a standard, but from the page I can't tell for sure). So that's more or less where I am now. Perhaps the logical course of action would be to see which parts of the OpenCyc can be relevant in worldforge, and perhaps how could they be used by a client or a server. Ideas? Suggestions? Regards, Aglanor P.D.: I am writing a doc with all of this, though as I have to deliver it here it's being done in spanish, but basically it says the same stuff as this mail, only expanded. I'll translate it once it's finished. _______________________________________________ General mailing list General@mail.worldforge.org http://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general From Administrator at LOGICMOO.mudshark.org Tue Jan 21 19:23:29 2003 From: Administrator at LOGICMOO.mudshark.org (Administrator) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities Message-ID: <664772D3D69BF640AE787ECC8BE41A84BDB4@12-228-241-205.client.attbi.com> Lots of research ahead.. I have approached it from various ways.. and see that the concepts are sound just getting all the things put together in code (game?) is the struggle. I have done some fun successful experiments with logicmoo but the real issue is a good addictive working game system has yet to be done. Worldforge brings that the close to reality. In 1998 I had felt that true AI (with singularity) is very accomplishable. But needed a platform that would push humans into the same [restrictive] programmatic environmental interfaces. But not limit their creative potential in actions or in authoring new facts about their world. You'd think that an all Text MUD would be the perfect fast solution. But language understanding is a whole other tough nut to crack. The world should come first.. we need to attach words to things.. not the other way around. Not that a text mud prevents this approach.. it's just that text mud was harder work. Microsoft Research had an open-sourced system that was much like the "ActiveWorlds VR" That made it possible for to work. Three months later, I was asked by some people (who helped fund research for a while) to create a database kernel that could persist human token memory and common sense. (CYC was not available to me at that time) Their goal was to see if an AI system would come. They gave me the same military simulations that they gave to Cycorp and put the system to the same tests, it passed the same as Cyc would, just tiny bit faster or slower at things. Although I never saw Cyc's source I later met with it's developers and we had done the most of the same things (just in different programming languages). I had no predefined background in description logics and propositional logic. Just understood the how-to concepts after reading scores of AI books/papers over a prolonged time. (I had my own words for all the same concepts) But I was really just recoding something that had started 25 some years before and had better user tools and 10000s of times more ontological content (CYC KB). Another problem with my Cyc-cloning work is it was distraction from the original "World-centric" design that I'd originally envisioned. I _wanted_ to _start_ from where my funding was supposed to leave off :) (And why spend the next 2 years reinventing Cyc?) So I started LogicMoo as a project that would take an Expert System and make it broker a world that embedded network devices could push data into. Humans could walk around to teach AI agents about the world. You can probly see the millions of applications of such a tool. I made a few server models towards this and at 95% finished into each code base would start on another because I was unwilling to expend energy writing a client that was to leverage such power and probly not have the eye candy quality others or myself would expect. Atlas servers are different though that they already have clients. These clients can posses the beauty we expect. One lacking aspect though is the author's inability to alter and improve the world runtime. (Like defining new 'types' of animals or trees) So, I myself am trying to figure out how I can fit into the community without redoing something that's already growing. I almost want to approach it as if that I haven't done anything already to look at adding or improving something. (I can always use my code in an expanding code base like STAGE or other worldforge servers) As far as ontological content preparations (a game ontology) you probly see that we could use 100% of opencyc :). And wondering how much should use? Hrrm .. it's ALL useful .. I guess it's asking how much is needed at this time. Dan Brickley at http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/03/rdf-moo/ (and http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2002/03/11/2002-03-11.html) And I for a while have been RDF fantasizing about MOOs .. You'll find tons of sources on the LogicMoo websites: But really what needs done is a real GAME. -----Original Message----- From: Miguel Guzm?n [mailto:miguelg@tid.es] Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 5:13 AM To: Douglas R. Miles (USA-1) Cc: Alistair Riddoch Subject: Re: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities Hi Douglas! I'm Aglanor from worldforge, and I am quite interested in the RDF ontology issue for virtual worlds. To make a long story short, I'm attending my doctorate on Telematics, and I want to orientate all the work on the field of virtual worlds. For my frst assignment I wanted to do something related to RDF, and I thought a good idea would be to specify an ontology for entities in virtual wordls. As I have seen, you've already achieved this in the opencyc project :), but I still want to do some work on this area, such as studying or explaining your ontology, or make some enhancements to it in a specific area (a game, perhaps?), a code implementation of something that uses your technology (like a media service for dime, the worldforge client I'm working on, so it can use different media depending on rdf tags over atlas entities), or a combination of the above. Any suggestion on possible areas to work on apart from those above would be greatly appreciated, as would be any other consideration you'd like to give me so my work can be compatible with the current state of the art and reusable later for other components of worldforge (or other systems). Regards, Aglanor P.D.: Alistair, I'm including a copy to you because I think you are also interested in this matter, I would also appreciate your suggestions. Douglas R. Miles (USA-1) wrote: >Hi >I am back online shortly (was relocating my computer system to new >residence) Generally an "Upper-level Ontology" is useful to the clients. >For example (already defined in atlas) "operation" "entity". I have worked >on one yes.. Then saw that I have a preconceived ontology that comes from my >work with CYC http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/doing-vocab.html#Action >http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/vocab/fundamental-vocab.html#siblingDisjointExcept >ions >(more info www.opencyc.org) >the lowercase (just Hungarian notation) correspond to attributes like >"#$doneBy" can be the from= in an operation. > >This ontology is very detailed and customers often would ask to get a very >lean basic "essential ontology". Which to accomplish means the definitional >collections so they can define new actions of class types. The wide >ontology is encouraged (you don't have to reinvent collections) so that when >a person crosses into having useful data for other programs (or AI) we are >using the same definitions for the same collections (classes). > >* How much of this could or should we put into atlas? > >Atlas has evolved a bit with clients and servers (I am not able to access >http://www.worldforge.net/aloril/atlas/spec/v0.2.4/index.html >at this moment) What is the most current atlas right now? >And if a particular game ontology is getting hard coded into clients (not >just servers) for better type support then it may as well be part of a >"level 2 atlas support".. > > >So I need to see the current new atlas spec then I'll make suggestion from >there. > > -----Original Message----- From: Miguel Guzm?n [mailto:miguelg@tid.es] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:55 AM To: general@worldforge.org; dmiles@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities Hello all, I need a quick answer from people here (and dmiles specially): has anyone started work on defining an ontology for Atlas entities? I am interested in doing some research and work on ontologies and RDF (resource description framework) for my doctorate, and by searching for references on ontologies for virtual worlds I stumpled upon none other than good old Worldforge, in this Dmiles' page: http://logicmoo.sourceforge.net/ How advanced is this project? Is here room for more research? Thanks in advance for any info on this, Regards, Aglanor > -----Original Message----- >From: general-admin@mail.worldforge.org >[mailto:general-admin@mail.worldforge.org] On Behalf Of Al Riddoch >Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:19 AM >To: general@worldforge.org >Subject: Re: [WF-General] Ontology and RDF dictionary for Atlas Entities > > << File: ATT00008.dat >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2002 at 05:54:38PM +0100, Miguel >Guzm?n wrote: > > >>Hello all, >> >> I need a quick answer from people here (and dmiles specially): has >>anyone started work on defining an ontology for Atlas entities? >> >> > >In a sense defining an ontology is part of what Atlas does, but >it there is no one single ontology, rather the ontology is specific >to the game, and the client queries it using Atlas. > >dmiles knows much more about this than I do, so you are probably >better off talking to him. > >Al > >_______________________________________________ >General mailing list >General@mail.worldforge.org >http://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general > > > From malkin at terpalum.umd.edu Wed Jan 22 15:29:03 2003 From: malkin at terpalum.umd.edu (Tess Snider) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Tips (was Logo Design Contest) In-Reply-To: <3E2DB93B.4090504@oppel.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Jason Oppel wrote: > I can't argue with you there. That said I don't think we should rule > anything out as someone may create a compelling logo which includes a > globe. :-) [DEATH OFF] Damn it, now I wish I'd finished my logo design guide. Just as a hint to people: please be cognizant of the visual language of your design. For example, depicting the world on fire in a forge, or being struck by a hammer against an anvil is generally NOT going to evoke positive feelings in viewers. Logo design is also not where to try out all of your favorite Gimp filters, or show off your 3D modelling prowess. Try to avoid anything that is busy, scales poorly, or has tons of colors. Ask yourself: What would this look like on a business card? Letterhead? A T-shirt? An icon? A 20-foot banner? What if it's printed in greyscale? Photocopied? Faxed? A good logo will survive all of these (ab)uses, and still be recognizable. Finally, is it a logo that will still look good in ten or twenty years, or is it too hip for its own good? Look at the logos of companies, organizations, or products that you like or respect. What makes them good? In general, people tend to instinctually over-design for logos. Take a deep breath, relax, and keep things sweet, simple, and striking. [DEATH ON] Tess From bear at code-bear.dyndns.org Sat Jan 25 02:45:51 2003 From: bear at code-bear.dyndns.org (bear) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] irc is down Message-ID: <0H9900G09EZKOD@mtaout06.icomcast.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 seems a ddos attack is rampant. we have gathered at freenode.net #worldforge if anyone is getting withdrawel symptoms. bear -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+MkCv7ial3MOmg6MRAr2HAJ0aBPxh86N+e1HcEGHTNOAVARigFQCeKj3+ Dl6oyXTVdAk42gqdbfn0TJU= =q/Yc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tom.austin at teradyne.com Mon Jan 27 14:44:49 2003 From: tom.austin at teradyne.com (tom.austin@teradyne.com) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Tips (was Logo Design Contest) Message-ID: Can the designs be 2d or do they need to be 3d? Tess Snider cc: Sent by: Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Tips (was Logo Design Contest) general-admin@mail.worl dforge.org 01/22/2003 12:29 PM Please respond to general On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Jason Oppel wrote: > I can't argue with you there. That said I don't think we should rule > anything out as someone may create a compelling logo which includes a > globe. :-) [DEATH OFF] Damn it, now I wish I'd finished my logo design guide. Just as a hint to people: please be cognizant of the visual language of your design. For example, depicting the world on fire in a forge, or being struck by a hammer against an anvil is generally NOT going to evoke positive feelings in viewers. Logo design is also not where to try out all of your favorite Gimp filters, or show off your 3D modelling prowess. Try to avoid anything that is busy, scales poorly, or has tons of colors. Ask yourself: What would this look like on a business card? Letterhead? A T-shirt? An icon? A 20-foot banner? What if it's printed in greyscale? Photocopied? Faxed? A good logo will survive all of these (ab)uses, and still be recognizable. Finally, is it a logo that will still look good in ten or twenty years, or is it too hip for its own good? Look at the logos of companies, organizations, or products that you like or respect. What makes them good? In general, people tend to instinctually over-design for logos. Take a deep breath, relax, and keep things sweet, simple, and striking. [DEATH ON] Tess _______________________________________________ General mailing list General@mail.worldforge.org http://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general From pato at myrealbox.com Tue Jan 28 09:25:17 2003 From: pato at myrealbox.com (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Tips (was Logo Design Contest) Message-ID: <1043763917.d351f5a0pato@myrealbox.com> tom.austin@teradyne.com wrote: >Can the designs be 2d or do they need to be 3d? They can be 2d but please make sure that at least one of the designs you submit is suitable for translation to a vector or 3d format. If you have any questions about this please feel free to ask away. I'll be posting the final contest rules today so be on the lookout for that. -Jason -Jason From llnz at paradise.net.nz Wed Jan 29 12:05:08 2003 From: llnz at paradise.net.nz (Lee Begg) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] WFAUNZDC - one week today Message-ID: <200301291205.09001.llnz@paradise.net.nz> Hi Worldforgers in the Austriala/New Zealand region. The WFAUNZDC is being held in Sydney on 5th Feburary. The location and time has not been set yet. Any suggestions? Also, who is coming? We need to know who to wait for and who to contact. There have been a few suggestions of what to do. Any more will be welcome. I think we will decided what we will do on the day. It will be fun to finally meet some of you. :-) Later Lee Begg From jason at oppel.net Wed Jan 29 00:00:29 2003 From: jason at oppel.net (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest Launch! Message-ID: <3E375FED.40200@oppel.net> Below you'll find the guidelines to the WF Logo Design Contest! http://www.worldforge.org/dev/content/media/proposals/logo_contest/index_html If anyone knows of an artist who might be interested please feel free to let them know about our contest! Look for an email from me tomorrow regarding publicity and getting the word out to other like minded groups who might be interested in participating. Good luck to all the artists and thanks in advance for your hard work!!! -Jason Oppel From malkin at terpalum.umd.edu Wed Jan 29 15:58:06 2003 From: malkin at terpalum.umd.edu (Tess Snider) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest Launch! In-Reply-To: <3E375FED.40200@oppel.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Jason Oppel wrote: > Below you'll find the guidelines to the WF Logo Design Contest! You probably also want to require that any working files be made available. That is, if it was made with an application which supports layers, a file with all of the original layers intact should be provided with the submission. If the winning application is a raster-based image, I am willing to help create a vector version for you guys. That said, SVG (http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/) is a nice, open standard format for vector artwork, and there are plenty of apps for editing it, now, both open and proprietary. Sodipodi (http://sodipodi.sourceforge.net/) was one of the early entrants on the scene, and has become quite nice, since it debuted. Tess From jason at oppel.net Wed Jan 29 16:38:06 2003 From: jason at oppel.net (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest Launch! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E3849BE.5060505@oppel.net> Tess Snider wrote: >On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Jason Oppel wrote: > > > >>Below you'll find the guidelines to the WF Logo Design Contest! >> >> > >You probably also want to require that any working files be made >available. That is, if it was made with an application which supports >layers, a file with all of the original layers intact should be provided >with the submission. > > Doh! I forgot about that one. I'll add it this evening. >If the winning application is a raster-based image, I am willing to help >create a vector version for you guys. > > Great! Thanks for the offer! -Jason From jason at oppel.net Wed Jan 29 16:39:33 2003 From: jason at oppel.net (Jason Oppel) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] Logo Design Contest Promotion Message-ID: <3E384A15.2060805@oppel.net> Currently I'm planning on contacting the Blender community and informing them about our logo design contest to see if we can generate some outside interest. I'm curious what other communities everyone here thinks would be appropriate for us to mention this to? Esp. useful would be links to communities that WF members are already active in and would feel comfortable informally mentioning this contest to. Thanks all! -Jason From blin at gmx.net Thu Jan 30 14:33:33 2003 From: blin at gmx.net (IRC Bookmark) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] BM: WF/CB slogans wild brainstorming (#lounge) Message-ID: <20030130143333.44D34B770@molgen-1.iah.medizin.uni-tuebingen.de> Latest finding from #lounge at 14:33 on Thursday, 30th January: Description: WF/CB slogans wild brainstorming URL: http://134.2.122.1/~kai/wf/%23lounge/2003-01-30,14%3A32.html#WF/CB_slog ____________________ This is a bookmark function of the log module for Smithers. Use "%log:bookmark ", it will update the bookmark.html and posts links the correct email address. Note that many times discussion starts earlier than bookmark place. From siria at student.hin.no Fri Jan 31 21:41:58 2003 From: siria at student.hin.no (Alien) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] immortality in dural Message-ID: <3E3ADF96.340B@student.hin.no> Hi, We've had a discussion in #worlds concerning immortality of elves, and whether to keep this or not. Many good arguments for both sides came out, and we've found out that if we are to make a good decision on this matter, more people should be able to comment. Therefore I wish to hear from anyone who has an opinion on this, and/or argument for or against, or possibly a completely different proposal altogether. As Dural is the world of WF, and not just of the world developers, this goes out to @general. Any and all input most welcome. Here's a link to the discussion we had: http://code-bear.dyndns.org/jasmine/%23worlds/2003-01-31,19%3A00.html (A meaningful discussion on this could also potentially be useful for further development of immortals, such as gods, undead, etc.) -Alien From obsidian_fox at atia.homelinux.net Fri Jan 31 17:03:51 2003 From: obsidian_fox at atia.homelinux.net (David Barbour) Date: Sat Apr 5 19:34:19 2003 Subject: [WF-General] immortality in dural In-Reply-To: <3E3ADF96.340B@student.hin.no> References: <3E3ADF96.340B@student.hin.no> Message-ID: <3E3B00D7.3010003@atia.homelinux.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alien wrote: | Hi, | | We've had a discussion in #worlds concerning immortality of elves, and | whether to keep this or not. Immortality of elves traditionally involves resistance to the common forms of death seen in humans (disease and aging), although elves are just as vulnerable as others to violence and famine. In a game balance sense, unlimited lifespan doesn't really present any problems (as might "Highlander" type immortality.) The exception to this, of course, is if time passes by at very high rates in the game (e.g. 1 game year per week) which will leave humans debilitated by age before a year is out. However, some people have difficulty justifying why a 300 year old elf wouldn't have a far greater knowledge and wisdom of how to do many things with greater skill than their human brethren. A focused and talented 'young' Elven tennis player with 100 years experience shouldn't have any problem beating the best human opponent (who likely has at most 15-20 years experience). Some people justify this through means of personality ("Elves are lazy." or "Elves tend to outlive their problems." or "Elves are too peaceful to learn the art of combat.") However, in most fantasy literature the Elves as both individuals and as a race are no lazier than various human cultures, and certainely the more evil elven tribes (the drow, in a forgotten realm's setting, for example) have practiced combat since their inception. In most fantasy literature, and in various roleplaying games, this little problem of explanations is simply allowed to slide and life goes on. That is easy to do, but it may not accurately fit the desired 'feel' of Dural. Of course, Dural is a dynamic world. Given the complexities of Cyphesis and the AI engines, it would be interesting to see how immortal elves develop as a culture in the world of Dural. Elves would simply be immortal humans with pointy ears and immunity to natural disease; don't give them any other advantages over humans to start with, and see how things develop. I imagine the young wouldn't experience the same hardships as the elders, and Elven family structures would become very important. I suggest, however, lowering birthrate quite a bit. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+OwDXVuG5MWlf0wARAgreAKCgq7N47zCLGGl9ZBI4nZz8ghUsogCgv6rr v3TLgD7UpMtVqAuyVY0Z+pk= =/qck -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----